| Lisa Falk |
Hi, I'm Lisa Falk, I'm director of education at the Arizona State Museum, and I have the pleasure of being with Annie Manuel, who is a pottery artist from the Tohono O’odham Nation here in Southern Arizona, and we are at the Arizona State Museum, and I'm gonna do a little interview with her. Hello Annie. |
| Annie Manuel |
Hi Lisa. |
| Lisa |
Thanks for being with us today. |
| Annie |
Well, thank you for inviting me. |
| Lisa |
We're just delighted to have you share your skills with us and your talents. And I wanted to ask you a few questions about how you learned to make pottery. |
| Annie |
I learned pottery making from my mother, she was a potter, and she passed it down to me and my brothers and sister. |
| Lisa |
Where did she used to make her pottery? |
| Annie |
She made it in Hickiwan, I come from Hickiwan, Arizona in the Tohono O’odham Nation. And that's where I live right now. |
| Lisa |
When you made pottery with your mom, did you do it in the kitchen or outside, or did you have a special room for it? Where did you make pottery? |
| Annie |
We did it in a separate room. In a little house that, that was used for storage, that was where we did all our pottery. |
| Lisa |
And where do you get the clay for the pottery? |
| Annie |
The clay comes from the side of a hill, right there in Hickiwan, the white clay. I use the white clay and I use the red clay, which comes in Hickiwan District, but it's up in the mountains, it's further up in the mountains. It's quite a ways from where I live, but I go out there to get it, me and my family. |
| Lisa |
You have to dig it out? |
| Annie |
Oh yeah, it's very hard clay. The red clay is very hard, and I have to have my sons go up there with me, and they help me dig it up. But it's different with the white clay. The white clay is very soft and crumbly. They just dig it out and it just comes out. |
| Lisa |
And is it useable just the way it is when you dig it out or do you have to do anything to make it usable? |
| Annie |
The clay has to be sifted, and have all the pebbles taken out of there. And it needs sand, you need to add sand for temper and water, and that's it. |
| Lisa |
And how long does it take to get the clay, from the time you go out and look for it, to the time you're ready to sit down and actually start working with it to make a pot? |
| Annie |
A few days. |
| Lisa |
A few days? |
| Annie |
Mm-hm. |
| Lisa |
Okay. And you mentioned that you learned with your mom; are there other people in your family who make pottery? |
| Annie |
Yes. I have two brothers that were pretty good at making pottery. And a sister. |
| Lisa |
And are they still making pottery? |
| Annie |
One of them is. His name is Jerome. He's still making pottery. But the other one is Billy, but he's not doing very much right now. |
| Lisa |
And what memories do you have of collecting clay and making pottery with your mother and brothers? |
| Annie |
I remember going out up in the mountains to get clay for my mother when she was doing it, and I remember her firing her pots, and just sitting with her and making the pottery. |
| Lisa |
What did you talk about while you were making pottery? |
| Annie |
Oh, a lotta stuff, not about pottery. |
| Lisa |
No? [laughs] |
| Annie |
We just, we just go there to make our pots, but we talk about other things than that. We don't talk about—normally don't talk about our pottery when we're working. |
| Lisa |
Right. Do you work with anybody now when you make pottery? |
| Annie |
No, I work by myself. I live by myself, so I have a lot of quiet time, and that's when I do my pottery. |
| Lisa |
Now, I know you have some children of your own; have you taught them to make pots? |
| Annie |
Yes, they know how to collect it, where to collect it. And they're not into it right now, but I know later on they will. They will start making it, because that's what happened to me. All I did with my mom was collect the clay, and then way later, when I was like in my 20s, I started making pottery. |
| Lisa |
And have you done it since then, or did you stop and then start again? |
| Annie |
I stopped for a while for, because of my job. But I always wanted to get back into making it. And recently, I retired from my job and I'm into making pottery full-time now. |
| Lisa |
That's wonderful. What was the job that you did? |
| Annie |
I was a security officer at the casinos, at our Desert Diamond and then the Golden Ha:sañ Casino, in the night shift. |
| Lisa |
It's real different than making pots. |
| Annie |
Oh yeah, uh-huh, I couldn't wait to get back to my pottery. |
| Lisa |
You mentioned doing the firing of the pots with your mother. How do you fire a traditional pot? |
| Annie |
Traditional? It's fired in a pit. The red clay is— I like to fire my red clay with cow dung. It leaves all kinds of interesting smoke marks on there. That's what I like about firing it with cow dung. And with the white pottery is most— It's in a pit also, but it's also placed in a tub, and then it's covered up, then fired with mesquite wood, 'cause it needs to get real hot. |
| Lisa |
And that's hotter than the dung? |
| Annie |
Yes. And it doesn't leave smoke marks. |
| Lisa |
How long does the firing take? |
| Annie |
About 30 minutes. |
| Lisa |
So it's pretty quick, low-firing piece. |
| Annie |
Yeah. |
| Lisa |
Can the pots hold water once they've been fired? |
| Annie |
Yes, they can hold water. You can cook in the red ware, and… |
| Lisa |
I've heard that O’odham clay pots for cooking beans come out better in— |
| Annie |
Yeah, that's what most the people ask for, is the red bean pots. |
| Lisa |
Red bean pots. And do you make those? |
| Annie |
Yes, mm-hm. |
| Lisa |
And what do you do with all the pots you make? |
| Annie |
Sell them. That's how I make my living right now, is selling pottery. |
| Lisa |
Where do you sell them? |
| Annie |
Everywhere. Arts and craft sales, places like here, and people invite me to their arts and crafts sales when they have them. So that's where I mostly sell my pots. |
| Lisa |
Now, I noticed a lot of your pots are actually little figures. Where did you get that idea? |
| Annie |
I got that idea because my mom told me that my grandmother on my father's side made effigies, and that's how I got interested into making them. And she told me that my grandmother would make those effigies and go sell them in Gila Bend. So, and she would say she would make earrings for them, and color their faces, and so that's when I started doing that. |
| Lisa |
That's lovely. And when you're working on a shape, where do you get your ideas of—do you know before you start, what the pot's going to look like, or does it form as you're doing it? |
| Annie |
It forms as I'm doing it. I don't know what I’m going to make. I just start, and however it comes out, I don't know how, but it comes out. [laughs] The shapes that, you know, the shapes that you see. |
| Lisa |
How do you decorate your pots? |
| Annie |
I decorate 'em with— I use the red clay mixed in with red ochre. I use that for the red paint, and I use some white clay for the white, and the black, I make my paint from the mesquite tree sap. That's how I get my black paint. And I also have, there's a root that I use which also has a brownish, reddish color that I also use on my pots. |
| Lisa |
And what are some of the designs— Where do the ideas for the designs come from? |
| Annie |
My designs come from, a lot of the designs that I use, I borrow from the old Hohokam pots. A lot come from me just by experimenting and doing different figures. But I do love to use the old Hohokam designs because they're so beautiful. |
| Lisa |
Have you seen the pots in our collection? |
| Annie |
Yes, I have. Mm-hm. |
| Lisa |
Got some ideas there? |
| Annie |
Yes. Mm-hm. |
| Lisa |
What would you like to aspire to make that you haven't done yet? |
| Annie |
I want to make a big olla. [laughs] |
| Lisa |
How big? |
| Annie |
A huge one. [laughs] But it's hard to do. I made some, but just so big. But they're not too big. |
| Lisa |
Your friendship pot's pretty big that you made. |
| Annie |
Oh yeah, mm-hm. Yeah. But I want to make one bigger than that. |
| Lisa |
That's great. Is there anything else you'd like to tell us about pottery-making for you, what it means? |
| Annie |
What it means to me is my connection, I think is— I feel it's my connection to the earth and to my culture. And for me it's kind of like a spiritual thing also. I get a good feeling from doing my pottery, and I will continue it until whenever. |
| Lisa |
That's wonderful. Well, thank you very much, Annie. |
| Annie |
Thank you for having me. I enjoy the day here when I do show all my pottery, and I hope people enjoy themselves. |
